S2 E13 - Gina Topp

[00:00:06] Christie Robertson: Welcome to Seattle Hall Pass, a podcast with news and conversations about Seattle Public Schools. I'm Christie Robertson.

[00:00:14] Jane Tunks Demel: And I'm Jane Tunks Demel.

A couple of notes. First, our guest opinions are their own. Second, we edited this interview for length and clarity. 

[00:00:25] Christie Robertson: Today we're talking to Gina Topp, the school board director for District 6, which includes West Seattle and South Park. 

We're very excited to have you, Gina, and I know you've been burning the midnight oil going and visiting communities. And so we really appreciate you being here to share with even more community.

[00:00:46] Gina Topp: Oh, thank you both for having me here today. I appreciate this podcast, how it works to educate our community, and really takes some very difficult topics and makes it digestible for listeners. So thank you for the work that you guys do.

[00:01:01] Christie Robertson: Oh, thank you so much. 

The District's Proposal

[00:01:03] Christie Robertson: So, when we contacted you, we were thinking about our Option C series, which was after the district introduced their Options A and B to close up to 21 schools. And we really wanted to talk to you because you had tried to make a motion to ask the superintendent to come up with a plan to close 4 to 6 schools in the midst of all that. And then later you and President Rankin came back with a resolution to close zero to 5 schools. 

So we are wondering how you're feeling about this plan that has come out with the four schools — Sanislo in the Southwest, Stevens in the Central region, North Beach in the Northwest, and Sacajawea in the Northeast, to be combined with neighboring schools. We're wondering how you're feeling about it.

[00:01:56] Gina Topp: I appreciate that question. I haven't made a decision yet about what I think about this plan. I'm still waiting for analysis from the district, and I hope that the board will have an opportunity to have an open dialogue and discussion about the closures. 

I've thought through a little bit about what I am looking for in a plan. I want a plan that supports a fair transition. Are we making sure that there is a well-supported transition for the students and educators?

How does this align with our overall budget goals? So, looking at it holistically from that perspective.

And then make sure that we're doing this from a data-driven approach and community input. So looking at both does that from a data perspective makes sense and making sure those decisions are also community informed. 

Which is why I've been spending some time with the Sanislo Elementary community with a really great community meeting. I don't think I've been to such an intentional community meeting before. They had food and snacks, they made it in an accessible location, and they even had child care. So all of that was just so heartwarming and wonderful to see. 

Also spent some time with the North Beach PTA to hear their concerns. 

One question that I'm really interested in asking is, from a timing perspective, in order to give families the most time to be able to make a transition, I think we've talked [about that] January is when the school board would need to vote. And I think that also allows for the district to, from an operations perspective, put things in motion that they would need to put in motion for the following school year. 

But we don't approve a budget until June for that following year. And we've also got a legislative session in between. So there is a lot that has to happen. 

So one of the questions I have — and I think I've asked this question before when we were looking at a larger footprint — but if we got the additional $100 million from the state on an ongoing basis, would it still be the recommendation of the district to close those schools? And so that is one question in particular that I hope I get the opportunity to ask and we get to have a discussion about what that looks like. 

[00:04:25] Christie Robertson: Do you have an idea of what you think the answer to that question would be?

[00:04:30] Gina Topp: I don't. I've spent a lot of time thinking about that question and I would like to have a dialogue with, because here's the — I guess here's the deal. Closing schools puts a dent in the structural deficit, something that I think is important for us to figure out, because I think we need to figure out how to provide more stability in our school system. Which is one of the reasons in the resolution we talked about figuring out that stability plan moving forward. Closing schools does put a dent in that structural deficit. 

I've worked in government, so I'm not new to this idea that you have to have a balanced budget and you're going to do whatever you can and pull whatever strings you can in order to continue that same level of service. You know, we took the Rainy Day Fund. We used ESSER funds for some continuing projects. We borrowed money from ourselves. We did all of these things to try to maintain our current level of service. And now we're at this point where we're not coming up with any more one-time solutions. And so being able to provide some of that stability for the system, so we don't have to continue to have this conversation over and over again, I think is really valuable for our system as a whole. 

I've put out to my district to the principals the offer to go visit any of the schools like, “I'm available, no pressure. Would love to have a tour, or see what's going on, or if there's a special celebration or, you know, something cool in the classroom would love to come.” And through these conversations, one of the things that the principals just keep saying is like "The budget... if I just knew and had some stability things would be so much better." And so I think that is critical. That was a long answer, sorry.

The Resolution

[00:06:23] Jane Tunks Demel: Oh no, we love it. 

So Gina, if you could, please tell us how that resolution came about to close up to five schools. 

[00:06:31] Gina Topp: Yeah for those of you who don't watch the board meeting, you saw that I tried to make a motion in the meeting to make a proposal or have the superintendent bring a proposal for a smaller footprint of schools. I think that what became clear is that the amount of disruption for 20 schools at one time was too much. I think we were probably asking too much for the superintendent to try to close a massive budget gap and get better outcomes for students and do all of this in one fell swoop. So was there a smaller targeted plan that we could put in place? And, quite frankly, see how we transition and support students and educators through the transition.

So I think the goal of the resolution was to provide clarity and direction to the superintendent. And to make it clear that we're not moving forward with this 20 school closure plan for the 25/26 school year. 

I think the other thing that the resolution does is makes it so the superintendent has to come up with that stability plan by June 2025, with the support of an official task force, which was really imperative to me in the resolution that we were making it not an option that community voices were informing, a task force was informing that stability plan. As well as if there are any closures, that task force would be informing that process as well. 

[00:08:03] Christie Robertson: I just wanted to know if you had any more news about that task force? Are they working on it or...?

[00:08:08] Gina Topp: They should be working on it. I think January was when it was supposed to be fully formed. I look forward to learning more because I have a lot of community members wondering how they become part of the task force or stay informed about what the task force is working on. 

Community Concerns: Kids Getting Special Education Services Being Separated

[00:08:23] Jane Tunks Demel: Yeah, we've been in communications with all the four schools on the closure list, and we've heard a lot of concerns from them. And I was just wondering if it was okay to go over maybe the top two with you. 

[00:08:36] Gina Topp: Yeah, I'll write them down too.

[00:08:38] Jane Tunks Demel: So one of the things that there's a lot of concern about is something you already mentioned, the transition of students. And especially the students who are in intensive special education pathways. For two of the four consolidations, the students who are in the Extended Resource pathway will be split from their general education peers. And the Extended Resource students are the ones who are 80 percent in the general education classroom. And so this seems to be a population that that disruption might be especially difficult for them.

 So, it's happening at Sacajawea and Stevens. For Sacajawea, the gen ed students would go to John Rogers, but the Extended Resource students would go to Olympic View and Wedgwood. And then for Stevens, some of the students would be rerouted to Madrona.

[00:09:29] Gina Topp: See, that's even information that I was not aware of. 

[00:09:33] Christie Robertson: Yeah. You have to like... there's a table in the additional analysis PDF. You have to really spend some time staring at that to realize. 

Especially because one of the things that rubbed me the wrong way was that somewhere near the top of the documents, it says something like we're keeping everybody together. So it's like those kids don't count as part of everybody. 

[00:09:55] Jane Tunks Demel: Sacajawea is my neighborhood school, so of course I know that consolidation the best. They're combining the general education communities, but then if those special education classrooms are already full at the receiving site, they're sprinkling them around to different sites. So it it'snot truly the whole community moving.

Community Concerns: Staffing Moving with Students

[00:10:16] Jane Tunks Demel: And then one other thing that came up at that North Beach meeting, which I caught part of it, too, that when they're saying teachers stay with the students, they don't mean Mr. Reddecliffe, my student's teacher is going with the students. They mean that the teacher FTE [full-time equivalent] is going with the students. That's something that I think could help with the transition plan.

[00:10:38] Christie Robertson: So my understanding, and I think it's really poorly written because it is the FTE in the plan. The clarification that I have since gotten is that it is the intent of the district that as many teachers move — the same teachers, not FTEs — educators move with the students to the new place as possible. That's the intent they're working on. But they have not come to any consensus with the union on how to precisely move forward.

[00:11:08] Jane Tunks Demel: It's good to hear what the intent is. And hopefully everyone moves toward that.

[00:11:13] Gina Topp: And the more we push and hold folks accountable to that intent, I think the better. Because I think moving holistically, the most community as possible together, I think is better. 

Community Concerns: Staying Together vs. Staying Nearby

[00:11:25] Gina Topp: However, I thought it was really interesting, and this is where community feedback is so important, hearing the North Beach community say, “We were never asked if we all wanted to go to Viewlands.” We're doing this on such a smaller scale now, we have an opportunity, that staff person at each of these schools has an opportunity to talk with each and every family to figure out what supports they need in order to transition and also what they actually want in this transition.

[00:11:56] Jane Tunks Demel: Yeah, and it's the same at Sacajawea, where no one asked us what we wanted. And in fact, our representatives from the district who've been coming, which has been extremely valuable, I want to give huge kudos to that. They're from the enrollment office, and they said that when Option A and B came out, they actually heard from the Sacajawea community. Some people were actually happy about it because it was dividing us between Hazel Wolf and Olympic View, and both of those are walkable still for the Sacajawea zone. 

For specific communities now, there really is an opportunity, like you said. I added it up — it's 823 students that will be affected. That you really could just go and ask each one of them, where do you want to be moved? So for the Sacajawea community, they would rather be split up, I think, than be traveled wholesale past three other schools, two miles away.

[00:12:51] Gina Topp: Yeah, and I think that has to be part of the discussion here at this point. And I respect the district for trying to be responsive to what they think they heard of communities moving together, but now we have the opportunity to be more granular here to say what really is the best outcome here for these schools.

[00:13:09] Jane Tunks Demel: Yeah, and also to see, which you guys put in your resolution, a multi-year plan. If you do some of these consolidations now, the boundaries are so haphazard that you're guaranteed to have to redraw them in two or three years.

Community Concerns: Staffing Declines

[00:13:33] Jane Tunks Demel: The whole idea of so-called well-resourced schools is hopefully that, when you hear that, it sounds like resources will be increased. And for most parents hearing that, they're thinking of their individual student that, maybe they'll get more library time or something like that.

But in this analysis that they released with the list of four, it shows that when you combine schools, things like the overall nurse time will be actually reduced. There's a 0.5 librarian at each school site. And now there'll still be a 0.5 librarian at each school site, but it would have twice as many students.

And then even music, art, and PE, the allocations for those teachers — those are usually the headline items that the central office staff will talk about with well-resourced schools. But when you combine the schools and the number of FTE they have now, and then the number of FTE they're listing that they would have in the consolidation, that total is usually reduced by 0.5 to 1 FTE. FTE is full-time equivalent for everyone out there. 

[00:14:42] Gina Topp: And to add to that sort of negative outlook, these are the current numbers before we look at what is going to be cut in this coming budget. That was brought to my attention way early on in the process, as like this is comparing to what we what's in place today, not what could be depending on what we have to do with our budget.

[00:15:02] Jane Tunks Demel: And also the enrollment we have today, because as we know with consolidations, oftentimes enrollment may go down. So yeah, that's a really good point. so I guess I just want to raise awareness about that. It's great to have one music teacher at every school, but students will not necessarily be getting more facetime.

[00:15:24] Christie Robertson: The sales pitch doesn't necessarily work anymore there.

[00:15:27] Gina Topp: That is correct. We're not increasing resources to students.

So this goes back to my main question. Looking at the whole budget and knowing that we have to make this decision in January, knowing things could change once the legislative session is done, and how do we make sure that we do that dance appropriately?

Legislative Session

[00:15:49] Gina Topp: Yeah, and I think the most difficult part of the resolution and all of this is trying to get the timing all correct with a possibly really exciting legislative session in between where, I've heard from anyone I talked to Seattle families saying, "Yes, how can we help with the legislature?" I've heard from our Seattle delegation. We're ready to try to get some money. But who knows? Olympia is so unpredictable. But I have hope that there's some support and help there.

[00:16:20] Christie Robertson: Especially since it's a statewide problem.

[00:16:22] Gina Topp: Yep. 

[00:16:23] Jane Tunks Demel: And the legislative session ends in mid-April, is that right?

[00:16:27] Christie Robertson: I think so.

[00:16:27] Jane Tunks Demel: This is Jane. We looked this up and the 2025 legislative session begins on Monday, January 13th, and is expected to last 105 days, ending on Sunday, April 27th. 

[00:16:44] Christie Robertson: Yeah, but so very little time between the end of that and the budget vote.

[00:16:49] Gina Topp: Yep.

Governance

[00:16:49] Christie Robertson: So this group of questions is all under the topic of governance. I think most people assume that you as board directors are privy to much more information than the general public. 

[00:17:10] Jane Tunks Demel: Are there other opportunities outside of board meetings where you're able to get more information to help inform your decisions?

[00:17:19] Gina Topp: So I think in general the board has pretty much the same information as the public. I think that is one of the reasons why the public meetings are so long and critical for us is because we have so many questions and so much information to get through. And a lot of times, we go through questions like, "Oh, I forgot to ask this question" or "We got this information and it has gotten more questions for me."

 School board directors have a form that they can fill out with their questions. I think it's accessible to folks. I prefer not to use the form because usually you get a very standard answer back that sort of skirts what you're looking for. Also, materials get added past the deadline for that. And I've found it not a valuable resource in order for me to spend my time submitting questions. 

[00:18:15] Jane Tunks Demel: That's the board director questions and staff responses document that gets attached to the agenda?

[00:18:18] Gina Topp: Yes, and usually the questions I have require more of a dialogue, like a back and forth. Not something a paragraph can answer. So I am disappointed in that structure.

I think that one of the most disappointing votes I probably took was shrinking down our two official meetings to one. I think that we need at least two meetings, and I think I went along with the vote because I was told we would schedule out two meetings, and we would see the calendar moving forward. And that has not happened yet. It was supposed to happen at a retreat. 

And it leaves me in a very difficult place of “Do I look for child care that evening? Do I not look for child care that evening? Should I just get it on the books?” And so if I'm having those struggles, it makes all the rest of our meetings a lot less accessible. And it's unclear whether they're going to happen or not. 

I also, I think we pack too much into one meeting, because I have a lot of questions, and this is our time to be able to ask those questions.

I've spent a lot of time thinking about our governance framework. And I think that we need to have an opportunity again, as a board, to talk about some places where there are some rubs in the system. And I think one of those places for sure is in progress monitoring — who gets to talk and what kind of questions we answer. I think that it would be healthy for us as a board to have the conversation of what's the cost benefit analysis to just having the superintendent talk and just asking strategic questions versus tactical questions. 

I think it's very valuable to hear from the staff who are doing this work on a daily basis, and I would like to hear them answer the questions. I don't expect the superintendent to have all the information that staff may have who are actually doing the work on the ground. 

And I think that if I have a question, other people are going to surely have that question. And it's probably valuable to have it answered there to help understand the context, instead of waiting for some later date.

But I know that there are differing opinions, and having that debate and discussion would be helpful so we feel comfortable with the agreed upon process moving forward.

[00:20:41] Jane Tunks Demel: So where do you have an opportunity to talk about the process and give input as a board?

[00:20:49] Gina Topp: I think that's a very good question. It's gotta be in some board meeting. Is it this next meeting where we have a governance training? 

So I think there's an opportunity. 

[00:20:59] Jane Tunks Demel: This is Jane breaking in again, and in fact, Gina is correct. On Wednesday, November 13th, the Seattle School Board will do some governance training. 

[00:21:10] Gina Topp: I think the other one — there are many opinions on community engagement and what that looks like. I've only been on the board now for like 10 months, but when I joined the board I really appreciated  Director Hersey did a work session on community engagement and laid out a really compelling community engagement strategy. 

And I was like, “Oh, great. How can we move forward with that?” Because I think that alleviates a lot of the opportunities of engaging with board members that I think the community wants. And I do a monthly community meeting, anyone's welcome from across the city, but I said, as soon as we put in something more structured in place that can have the elements that a district supported meeting can have like interpretation and space and all of those things, I can stop having my community meetings because we will have this structure in place. And I think how that fits into the governance model I think needs to be part of the conversation as well. 

[00:22:08] Jane Tunks Demel: And Gina, you're the only director who has monthly meetings with community. So what are the benefits of those meetings for you as an individual? And then also, do you feel pressured to stop them at all?

[00:22:20] Gina Topp: I think I feel pressured to continue to create a cohesive engagement strategy, and I should, I think that would be actually better. The engagement sessions for me, once a month, I try to do them in different formats. It's just one input for me in order to help me make the decisions I need in order to do my job. I rely on data and information from the district and from other sources, but then hearing directly from the community. And I understand that not everyone's always able to make it or has the same sort of availability. And my meetings are by far not perfect. I don't have resources for interpretation or childcare. But it is one input and then trying to figure out how to supplement that by attending different community meetings that I'm invited to or going on school tours and such.

And let's see. I think that there is value in having committees, at least a budget and finance committee, where there can be a subset of board members who dive deeper into some of these issues and can really get the information both for themselves, but it's a way to inform the public.

And I know that is a tenet that Student Outcomes Focused Governance says, board meetings should not be in place to inform the public, but that is the only place where they're getting information from us. So we should use it as a tool.

[00:23:53] Christie Robertson: It's another case where there's so much to do, and you're taking away one of the places that things can be done. I remember when they discontinued committees, they said, "We should do this as a whole board. So all this stuff should come before the whole board." But there's just not time. 

[00:24:09] Gina Topp: There's just not time and that spreads the work out a little bit between different board members, which is helpful. And having a committee meeting keeps folks accountable to getting the work done because you've got a meeting in place where the work's gonna happen.

[00:24:23] Christie Robertson: I think the last governance question we had was: the point of all this cutting back on board activities that is part of Student Outcomes Focused Governance is that it's supposed to give time to really focus on student outcomes. Like what do the students know and be able to do?

And the progress has not really been very good. It's generally been flat at best in reading, math, and college readiness for Black boys. And so I guess it just makes me wonder how confident you guys feel about that this governance structure is going to get us to where we need to be.

[00:25:05] Gina Topp: I think that's a good question. And what I appreciate about the governance model is it does say, "What are the goals? What do you want students to be able to do? And how do we align all our resources in order to get those outcomes?"

And I've seen that work elsewhere. I've been thinking of a few examples. I used to work for King County and one of our goals was "end homelessness." Okay, that's an unachievable goal. But what is each department's role and responsibility in achieving that goal? I could clearly define and say whether it's 500 beds or X number of health clinics visits. Everyone had their role to play in order to achieve that goal, and it worked really well.

And similarly, I would like to see how we align some of our resources better into achieving some of our goals. And I think that's the link we are missing in this process. 

Budget

[00:26:14] Christie Robertson: So then I think the last set of questions we have is the budget. School closure conversations seem to eat up all the air in the room because they have such impacts. And so, we still have this like $90 million, what is it now? $94 million deficit.  

[00:26:34] Gina Topp: We'll see if that number stays the same, but yeah.

[00:26:37] Christie Robertson: And how are you feeling about our ability to tackle this budget? Are we going to be okay? And then I have a second question after that.

[00:26:47] Gina Topp: I think that is a critical question. The school board has to balance their budget. And I think one of the questions that I asked when Superintendent Jones first proposed his 17- and 21-school closure plans was "could you close this budget without school closures? Is that possible?" And he said, "It would be difficult but yes, we could find alternatives." 

I don't want to sugarcoat anything. this was not going to be easy. These are going to be cuts that I don't think anyone in our community wants to see. It's transportation changes, whether it's reducing or eliminating different programs, whether it's classroom increases, central office reductions will definitely be in that. All of those things are not things that we want to do. No person says, "Oh, I want to join the school board so I can cut services and programs and increase class sizes. Let's go." 

So it's going to be a conversation of holistically looking at the system. What cuts hurt the least for our students? And it will likely be a combination of these different cuts. 

That being said, I think we talked a little bit about the legislature. The legislature is still in play and I continue to plug that we have to go to them to ask to help solve not just our school funding problem, but public education funding across the state. So the more your listeners hear that the better, please.

[00:28:27] Christie Robertson: 100%. Yes, we all need to go down there. This is the time. This is the session. 

You mentioned before about there not being a finance committee anymore. There's also not a budget advisory group of budget experts. You're probably the closest to a budget expert on the school board. It's not most school board directors’ expertise. Is anything more going to be added to help support that effort? 

[00:28:56] Gina Topp: It was really incredible to watch the amount of information come in from the community when the list of 17 and 20 schools came out. The way that the networks of parents and educators and everyone came together to get information. What I kept saying is "There's a lot of unanswered questions. What I'm looking for is, send me your questions so I know, what things haven't maybe been thought of." And the amount of helpful information and energy there was so exciting. 

So, again, the reason why in the resolution I put the task force in place, that it was so important to me, is because we have such smart, incredible people here and smart, incredible people working in our school district too. How do we utilize them in order to make the best decisions? Make sure that we're getting the information we need and the community input we need in order to do our jobs. 

Board Voting Process

[00:29:55] Christie Robertson: So when the superintendent makes a final recommendation for school closures, it could be from zero to 4. But will he be presenting more than one option for you to choose from, or how will that vote work?

[00:30:10] Gina Topp: I don't know. That is a question I've asked. I don't know what his plan is there.

[00:30:15] Christie Robertson: And do you know if it'll be like one school at a time vote or all four?

[00:30:20] Gina Topp: That is specifically, one of the things I'm... I wasn't here when the vote happened previously, and so I don't know what is legally required or what is needed there. But something I've definitely asked. 

[00:30:32] Christie Robertson: So Gina, thank you so much for being with us here today and answering all these important questions.

[00:30:39] Gina Topp: Thank you both for having me here today. And thank you to the Hall Pass community for wanting to be educated about what is happening in Seattle Public Schools.

[00:30:49] Christie Robertson: That concludes this episode. Thanks for listening to Seattle Hall Pass, and you can find our show notes at seattlehallpass.org.

[00:30:59] Jane Tunks Demel: While you're at our website, you can also click the donate button to help us fund our costs. Contributing as little as $3 a month Is so helpful to us. 

[00:31:10] Christie Robertson: I'm Christie Robertson. 

[00:30:12] Jane Tunks Demel: And I'm Jane Tunks Demel. We'll see you next time on Seattle Hall Pass.