S2 E12 - 4 Schools

[00:00:00] Christie Robertson: Welcome back to Seattle Hall Pass, a podcast with news and conversations about Seattle Public Schools. I'm Christie Robertson. 

[00:00:14] Jane Tunks Demel: I'm Jane Tunks Demel.

[00:00:16] Jasmine Pulido: I'm Jasmine Pulido.

[00:00:17] Christie Robertson: We're here today to talk about the new tentative plan that Seattle Public Schools put out that involves closing four schools in four different regions of the city.

[00:00:29] Jane Tunks Demel: And at this point, it's just a proposal, and the final vote will be in January. And from my understanding the proposal is four schools, but when Superintendent Jones comes back to the board, it could be from zero to four schools. So we'll see what happens.

[00:00:47] Christie Robertson: Yep. So they're gathering information, hopefully to help with their planning and decision making. And that's happening throughout the months of November and December.

[00:00:59] Jane Tunks Demel: And do we want to talk about which schools they are? 

[00:01:02] Christie Robertson: In the Northwest region, the proposal is that North Beach Elementary would consolidate with Viewlands and be housed at Viewlands. In the Northeast, Sacajawea would consolidate with John Rogers at John Rogers. Stevens in the Central region would consolidate with Montlake at Montlake. And Sanislo in the Southwest would consolidate with Highland Park at Highland Park.

In this episode, we're going to go through a lot of details about what we've learned about those closures, most of which came from the well-resourced schools website, and two different PDFs that are on that page. And we'll link to those in the show notes. They are called "published analysis" and "additional analysis." Tons of data there for those who want more information. And what we're planning to do in this episode is just kind of walk through what we felt to be the most important parts of that, the parts that we've heard people talk about, the parts that we feel like need more explanation, and the parts that people might have missed if they haven't read them closely. So let's proceed.  

[00:02:14] Jane Tunks Demel: Three of these consolidations include very large new buildings with 500- to 650-student capacities. To fill those buildings. SPS needs to bring in the students from these smaller schools. The new Viewlands building, for example, opened in the fall of 2023. And though it has a 650-student capacity, there are only 290 students currently enrolled. So they'll take North Beach, which is nearby and has a building in bad condition, close it, and move those students to Viewlands. 

Similarly, John Rogers and Montlake are also both being rebuilt right now, and they'll reopen next fall. Both of those buildings will be able to hold 500 students. Even though their current enrollment is just 171 for Montlake and 248 for John Rogers. So what happened there is, again, there are new buildings that are built to be more than twice the size of their current student body. So now they have to fill those new buildings with students. 

For John Rogers. They'll close Sacajawea. Even though it's not the closest school it's the building with the worst building condition in the Northeast. 

And for Montlake, they'll close Stevens. And that one, I don't really have an explanation for why they want to close Stevens because that building is actually in decent condition. 

[00:03:41] Jasmine Pulido: I just wanted to point out that there is no school closing in the southeast region.

[00:03:46] Christie Robertson: No.

Criteria

[00:03:47] Christie Robertson: Let's talk about the criteria they used for picking these four schools. They said they used building condition. So three out of the four have really bad building conditions. Stevens does not. Then the learning environment, which is how the school is set up to be how they want modern schools to be, which are good for I think, especially for kids who have extra needs who might need reading support or behavior spaces. So I really love that criterion and I love they have that in there. 

What they want to see in a learning environment. It's like the class spaces are big enough. There's lots of things like that. 

[00:04:26] Jane Tunks Demel: Christie and I have been to West Seattle Elementary recently, and you can see a lot of that. It's like flex space in the hall or somewhere that's in a more open space where they can have small groups.

[00:04:38] Christie Robertson: So I have experience: my kid was shipped from Bryant to Laurelhurst for special ed and they had tiny classrooms, which was very problematic because he needed to move. And he couldn't get out of a seat without bumping into five other kids. And then when he was pulled out of the classroom, which he was constantly, they had to walk him to the other end of the school building. There was no space near the classroom that he could just calm down and read a book or something. So those things are at the modern schools like West Seattle and Thornton Creek. 

[00:05:09] Jane Tunks Demel: Yeah, and I know actually that was all built into the Sacajawea design too, if they had built it. And I think it's interesting because I think that sounds awesome, all those spaces, but at Sacajawea, they have 40 percent students receiving special education services, and I haven't heard families having problems with how it's working at Sacajawea. But maybe it's just because the teachers are all trained and know how to work with those students. 

[00:05:38] Christie Robertson: Yeah, I think it's if the school is big, it needs those spaces. If it's small, then you're helping them in a different way, by like having everyone, all teachers know them really well and stuff.

[00:05:49] Jane Tunks Demel: So that's a really great point, because at these small schools — North Beach, Sanislo, Sacajawea, Stevens — those communities are well taken care of. So because now the trend is to have big schools, they will have the sensory spaces, but is it actually better or is it just a different way to hopefully have the same outcome?  I just know as a parent of neurodiverse children that they did really great in the small school space. 

[00:06:19] Christie Robertson: And then in this learning environment table of how they calculated it, there's also just ratings of all of the various spaces like libraries, STEM, art, gym, performance, lunch, CTE, custodial, library, etc. In terms of their Space, Configuration, and Environment. So if you're interested, you can go look at that table. 

And Jas, are you trying to get a word in edgewise?

[00:06:48] Jasmine Pulido: Yeah, I was just gonna say I was reading something that was saying that a lot of the private schools in the area are 300 or fewer students. I thought that it was really interesting that people are paying for smaller classrooms for those benefits. And given that private school enrollment is at an all time high of 25%, I think that's worth considering.

And then the second thing I wanted to say was the learning environment, does that include like Focus and Distinct classrooms, or is that part of the specialized service models?

[00:07:21] Christie Robertson: That's part of the well resourced capacity, which is another factor. 

The biggest thing that was considered this time — that was not considered in the last plans to close up to 21 schools — was that they only considered schools that would fully consolidate into a neighboring school. They heard back from families that they wanted to stay together. And so that was a big part of their criteria.

[00:07:47] Jane Tunks Demel: The definition of neighboring schools is really interesting because I know at Sanislo, they would be consolidated into Highland Park, and it's about two miles away. And there are some other schools that are closer to it. And it's the same with Sacajawea and John Rogers. There's about three other elementary schools that are closer.

At Sacajawea, we've been in touch with the enrollment department, and they actually told us that when Option A came out, they got a lot of positive feedback about it. Because in that option, Sacajawea would close, and then the north side [of the attendance area] would go to Hazel Wolf and the south side  [of the attendance area] would go to Olympic View. And both of those schools are walkable. 

And so when they're saying they listened to the community, I think they might just be talking about the overall all of Seattle Public Schools, but they haven't been in touch with any of the individual school communities. Now that there's only four schools and I added them up, it's about 850 students at these four schools on the closure list. How amazing would it be if they came to those communities and asked them, what is it that you want? Because there actually is space in Olympic View and Hazel Wolf that could fit Sacajawea [students], and I think that option might be preferred. 

Also there's many families at North Beach Elementary. The south part of their zone is closer to Loyal Heights and there is some space in Loyal Heights for students. So there are some community members that would prefer to go to Loyal Heights just because it's closer to their house than to Viewlands. 

[00:09:25] Jasmine Pulido: And if they wanted to, they can. Like they're going to be able to choose enrollment? 

[00:09:29] Jane Tunks Demel: Well, what they're saying is that they'll have a closure tiebreaker, and so that's similar to the sibling tiebreaker that works now. If you want to go to a school that's not your assigned school you can fill out the choice application, and they have a ranking of who gets to go in first.

So I think the closure tiebreaker sounds awesome, but I would like to advocate for more assurance that families can really get the right fit for them. Like if there's a school closer to your house than whatever your newly assigned school is, I think you should be guaranteed to get in.

[00:10:05] Christie Robertson: Okay, the last thing I want to say about the criteria they used to select which schools to close is that two criteria that were not used were performance metrics like test scores and cost per student. And there has been pressure on the district to use those criteria. And I'm really glad that they're resisting that pressure because I think that those factors tend to reflect more about the needs of the student body  than anything about the school itself.  

Closure Impacts

[00:10:36] Christie Robertson: There's some data on who the school closures impact that I thought was interesting. So Jane, you said you added up the number and it was 800-some [students]. It represents 3.6 percent of students in Seattle Public Schools, 

[00:10:52] Christie Robertson: They're slightly more white, multiracial, and Asian than the district totals. 

[00:10:58] Jasmine Pulido: What I read in the demographic analysis was that they were trying to make sure there was, I think it was, like, less than 30 percent change in demographic in any plus or minus. And so, yeah, the way that I interpreted that was — I understand not wanting to change things because you're trying to cause the least amount of disruption necessary. And there's also the fact that the city is redlined, so you're actually reinforcing the status quo. I don't have an answer for that, but it did make me think, oh would racially racially reinforcing the status quo means that yeah, that there's going to be a lot of inequity with that.

[00:11:22] Christie Robertson: And the only other thing it said was that North Beach got more diverse. It said the only one that changes by more than 10 percent in racial demographics is Viewlands. Which goes from 48 percent white to 60 percent white. So North Beach must be very white to be able to do that.

[00:11:56] Jasmine Pulido: Exactly.

[00:11:57] Christie Robertson: So those will presumably be at better integrated schools. 

[00:12:02] Jasmine Pulido: In one direction. Yeah.

[00:12:04] Christie Robertson: Well, yeah.

[00:12:05] Jane Tunks Demel: And then there's the conversation about Title I status because Title I funds come from the federal government and are based on the rate of free and reduced lunch. And as we all know, free and reduced lunch  — more marginalized communities are usually more benefited by it than more wealthy white communities.

So with North Beach going into Viewlands, does that mean they'll lose their Title I status? And is that a good thing or a bad thing? 

[00:12:34] Christie Robertson: Does Viewlands have Title I status? 

[00:12:36] Jane Tunks Demel: At the moment it does. 

[00:12:38] Christie Robertson: Yeah, that Title I thing has been starting to bug me cause it encourages you to keep kids in poverty separated. 

[00:12:46] Jasmine Pulido: Mm hmm. Or at a high rate together. Yeah.

[00:12:51] Jane Tunks Demel: I don't know the answer to that, but I hear concerns being raised in the community because it means that there'll be fewer resources. John Rogers is currently Title I, and Sacajawea we're not Title I. It's just another factor to think about.

Closure Impact: Special Education Data

[00:13:05] Christie Robertson: So those are some of the racial and income demographics. And then they also mentioned some statistics about kids getting special education services who are impacted. Specifically, they talked about kids getting intensive special education. Which I think means anybody above the level of Resource. They are saying that 10.6% of the kids that are in closing schools are getting intensive services compared to the district-wide average of 4.4%. So more than twice as many.

[00:13:41] Jane Tunks Demel:  Yeah, and a friend of ours downloaded all the data about the different demographics at all the Seattle Public Schools,  including students receiving special education services. And it turns out that of all the K-5 elementary schools, the top two are on this school closure list. And those two are Stevens and Sacajawea, which brings up a lot of concerns.

What do you think about that, Christie?

[00:14:07] Christie Robertson: I think that means that there has to be a lot of care taken in the transition if they do close these schools. It's hard for any kid to make a transition, but it's probably going to be even harder for those kids.

And it's made me think as usual more about our whole system of grouping kids into these classrooms for special education and making them go to where there's space for them. Which is different than we do for any other kid.

Special Education Program Placement

[00:14:36] Jane Tunks Demel: And Christie? Have you looked at the changes in service and program placement for the special education intensive services.

[00:14:44] Christie Robertson: Yeah. So first, a very brief primer on special education services or pathways or programs. That all means the same thing. 

Resource is the least level of intervention. And that's just like reading support. And things that can kind of be done by appointment for kids who are struggling in specific areas. Resource is at every school and kids can get Resource services at whatever school they're at. 

Next comes Extended Resource, which has multiple IAs [instructional aides] going to the general education classes and helping kids in the classroom. Kids getting Extended Resource services are generally in the classroom more than 80% of the time. 

Then we have two programs that are segregated from their general education peers. Some schools manage some kind of integration of those kids better than others, but they have their own classrooms and they stay in those classrooms most of the time. And those two pathways are called Focus and Distinct. 

There are also a couple of other special education programs, but they don't come to play in these specific closures. 

We are planning an episode to explain how special education works in Seattle Public Schools. I think everybody in the district should have some basic level of understanding of how it works. 

Meanwhile let's talk about what's happening with these pathways during these school closures.

Yes. So for two of the schools, kids are going to stay together with their communities.

[00:16:23] Jane Tunks Demel: Which two are those? 

[00:16:24] Christie Robertson: North Beach and Sanislo, the new schools are going to add programs so that they can all stay together. 

But for the other two consolidations, that's not the case. Stevens kids who are in the Extended Resource program will probably not go to Montlake. They'll go to Madrona because there's one Extended Resource program at Montlake, but there's not room for a whole nother Extended Resource class. And then Sacajawea is the most complicated. John Rogers will get a new Distinct program and a Developmental Pre-K, but for the kids who are in the Extended Resource program, some of those kids will go to Olympic View and Wedgwood instead of John Rogers.

[00:17:03] Jane Tunks Demel: Yeah. And that really concerns me because of all the intensive special education pathways, the Extended Resource students are the ones who are with the general education students 80 percent of the time. And these students are the ones who are going to be most heavily impacted if they have to be separated from the general education cohort that they've been with all these years. 

[00:17:27] Christie Robertson: Yup. They'll be separated from their friends. 

[00:17:29] Jane Tunks Demel: So this is another example of we're hearing the district say "we want to keep the communities together" and what they're doing is focusing on the general education students. They're merging them into another school. And then they're just sprinkling around the special education pathways to wherever there happens to be space. 

What's not spelled out?

[00:17:47] Christie Robertson: Personally, I was impressed with the amount of data that they had the analysis they did. Especially, I was really appreciative that they actually wrote out the transition plans for the special education programs and the preschools and actually mapped it out, which they didn't do last time.

But there were a lot of areas that they were very hand wavy on. The classic one was advanced learning and highly capable services, which they did what they say all the time, which is that they are provided at all elementary schools. I have yet to talk to anybody who says that they're provided at their elementary school, but let us know if they do it at your elementary school.

And then the future use of the buildings was basically, they said they're all going to be inventoried. No idea, except for Stevens. 

And then the transition support was super hand wavy and you've already been talking about this a little bit, Jane. They say they have nine transition work groups focused on different areas of support. So I think that's like people in central office that are like maybe having regular meetings to deal with these different areas of transition and

[00:18:57] Jane Tunks Demel: Or they will have.

[00:18:58] Christie Robertson: Will have, and then they say each school community will form a transition planning team with leaders from both schools and that there'll be a small grant to support that.

[00:19:08] Jasmine Pulido: Yeah. And it doesn't say what grant is just a small grant. And then that's the end of the analysis at the last. That's it. 

[00:19:14] Christie Robertson: It's very akin to those last options A and B where they said, "don't worry, we're SPS, we'll take care of all the areas you can trust us."

And then the last area that's very hand wavy is the strategic alignment section. When the school board rejected the superintendent's Options A and B, one of the things they really got on his case about was that there is no analysis of how the closures would get them closer to their strategic goals of improving math and reading and college career readiness for black boys in Seattle Public Schools. 

There are three paragraphs to answer this complaint. First, they point out that 13 schools have received science of reading training. Only 13, really? But then that if maybe schools combined, those benefits will land at the combined school. Although they don't actually state if any of the schools involved in these consolidations are the ones that have gotten the science of reading training. 

Second, they talk about how having multiple teachers per grade helps collaboration. And so therefore could help make progress toward the objectives. 

Third, they say having preschool programs will strengthen the progression from preschool to third grade. And I guess they're saying maybe that could help with reading goals. 

As Jasmine points out, there's no reference to the real data that's come from various studies about how student outcomes generally get worse for kids who are impacted by closures and consolidations. It could have been included to show how they're taking into account and specific ways they plan to counter those effects. And they didn't. 

[00:20:53] Jane Tunks Demel: So my perspective is a little bit different because I also see all the data. There's more data than last time, and I appreciate that data, but it still shows there's just so many flaws in what they've laid out so far. For example, the Extended Resource classrooms at Sacajawea and Stevens, those students are going to be pulled away from their current general education cohort.

[00:21:16] Christie Robertson: At least we know that. 

[00:21:18] Jane Tunks Demel: Yeah, but it's not acceptable, okay? And then also with the shape of the zones, the new boundaries of the consolidated schools don't seem to make a lot of sense. And in two or three years, as they close more schools, they're going to have to redo the boundaries again. 

I think this is a great start. And what I would really love to see is a multiyear plan. What's the multiyear plan so that students don't have to change schools two times?

Community Notes: Sanislo

[00:21:49] Christie Robertson: Should we talk a little bit about the different communities? 

[00:21:52] Jasmine Pulido: Yeah. 

[00:21:52] Christie Robertson: I went to a community meeting for Sanislo. And I had never been there. It was a community meeting that the PTA had organized. Gina Topp was there, the school board director for that region. They had childcare, they had interpretation in multiple languages. They had a great turnout. A lot of families showed up who were using the interpretation. And it just was a really close knit community. People were talking about that it's going to feel like a loved one is dying. 

And people talked about exactly what we were just saying that their segregated special education program that they have there they do a lot of inclusionary work so that those are their friends. They're friends with the kids that aren't in those programs, and that's going to be harder to do in a bigger space.

They talked about how it's such a high percentage of immigrant communities from all kinds of different backgrounds. And one mom talked about how at lunch, the kids all share each other's lunches and they're like, Oh, you've got wonton noodles and I've got ramen and that kid over there has sushi. And they all just like to share and think it's really cool. And they're worried about what it's going to be like to move to a bigger school and that they'll be lost in the crowd. So I think it's always good to think about what it feels like on the ground for these schools.

[00:23:19] Jasmine Pulido: And just to just let our listeners know, we would like to do an episode where we highlight each of the schools and their origin stories. So we would love it if you send us any audio files about history or even about the community as it is currently so that we can feature it in a future episode.

[00:23:37] Jane Tunks Demel: It would be fun when we're doing these schools if we can find people who like went there themselves.

[00:23:41] Christie Robertson: There's most of these schools like at Sanislo, they had teachers that had been around for like 35 years. And there was, like, parents whose parents had gone there. And so we could probably get in touch with some people that were there a long time ago.

[00:23:56] Jasmine Pulido: Yeah, like multi-generational. That would be so cool.

Community Notes: North Beach

[00:24:00] Christie Robertson: One other community note about North Beach. When they were trying to figure out what to do and their school was on the list, they had considered advocating for their school and decided to broaden it out and advocate for school funding in general. So they have a website called "fund SPS". And they're working on educating folks about school funding, capital levies, and the state level challenges that we face.

The Fab Four

[00:24:25] Jane Tunks Demel: And actually all four schools on this list are working together. We call ourselves the Fab Four. So for example, Christie, that Sanislo event that you went to, people from Sacajawea helped with that event. And also from other schools that weren't on the list, but were on the previous list. A parent from Graham Hill was heavily involved in supporting that event. And we helped fundraise dollars so that the interpreters could be paid. So I just really want to highlight to everyone that the schools are all supporting each other. There was a rally at Sacajawea. We had people from several other schools come and show their support. Everyone's just trying to help each other as much as they can. And also make sure that the communities at those schools are all being heard. All four of these schools have gone to a lot of trouble to translate materials into every home language at the school. And that's because the school district hasn't done that. 

Next Steps

[00:25:17] Christie Robertson: So what are the next steps in this process? I know there's a district-wide info session on November 14.

[00:25:27] Jasmine Pulido: They'll have the community hearings. 

[00:25:29] Christie Robertson: And I wonder if the board will go to those. 

[00:25:31] Jasmine Pulido: Mm hmm. I believe they'll hear it in December and then in January they'll vote on it. And do we know, if they say no to voting on it, do they think of a backup plan?

[00:25:43] Christie Robertson: Well, the board doesn't think of a backup plan. They can give guidance, but that basically means the district has to come up with something else.

[00:25:52] Jasmine Pulido: So I guess what my question is because at the previous school board meeting, when Options A and B were introduced, Liza Rankin had mentioned, and maybe a few of the long-term school board members might agree, that they felt pressured to say yes, because if they said no, they wouldn't have any other options. So I guess what I wonder is if that is a real concern then is there a way to put less pressure on them by having an alternate plan or something.

[00:26:27] Christie Robertson: Yeah, it's always surprised me that the superintendent only brings one plan to the school board. Like when they considered Options A and B, the district always said they were only going to bring one plan to the board like they were going to consider it and then decide which one to bring before the board and the board says yes or no. They were never going to present both the options to the board. So that just doesn't seem to be the way this superintendent does it. 

[00:26:51] Jasmine Pulido: I just feel like that makes it "okay, you take my plan or SOL."

[00:26:55] Jane Tunks Demel: And that's why they are stressing right now that this is just a proposal to close four schools, and that the superintendent, even if he comes back with one plan, it can be zero to four schools. And I guess a lot of that will depend on the community engagement.

[00:27:09] Jasmine Pulido: Technically it was, like, zero to five schools, and they've just decided on four. Is that right?

[00:27:14] Jane Tunks Demel: So that was the same thing. Like at first it was zero to five, and then he came back with four. And I think it's amazing that he decided to protect the South end communities, because there is no study that shows that closing schools improves student outcomes. So we'll see what he comes back with. The final vote is in January.

[00:27:33] Jasmine Pulido: I've heard other districts do five proposals. I am really surprised that it's really only one proposal and that there's not really any future thinking in regards to that. And to your point, Jane, about putting together a multiyear plan. If you build a plan year by year, it doesn't necessarily connect back to each other.

Capacity and multi-year planning 

[00:27:59] Jasmine Pulido: So for instance, if they close a school and then students get moved once, they could get moved twice if they continue to build up a plan year by year instead of proposing a multi-year approach. Which is what they plan to do, right?

[00:28:14] Jane Tunks Demel: All signs point to that this will just be the first round of school closures, and then they'll learn from it and do more school closures. 

But one really interesting thing about how did we get here, that we have all these big elementary schools that are half empty. And Kellie LaRue, she was on the BEX III, IV, and V committees, she told me that for BEX IV, which was the levy before the one we're currently in, they built several new buildings like Loyal Heights and others. But they had a plan of growth boundaries, and it was a multi-year plan. So you could look ahead and say "Oh, okay, my neighborhood is going to shift from this elementary school to that elementary school in 2018" or whenever it was. 

But when the BEX V levy happened, and those are the buildings that are all recently rebuilt, like Viewlands, James Baldwin, John Rogers, and Montlake, there was no plan for how they're going to fill those buildings. So they're figuring out how to fill the buildings after they've already built the buildings. And that's one reason why they're just jamming other communities into these buildings. And they're going to have to redraw those boundaries later. So it doesn't seem well thought out.. 

[00:29:27] Jasmine Pulido: An additional complication to that is that the BEX levy getting passed by voters means we have a lot of capital money. But since we aren't fully funded for operations, this means that we have a lot of impetus to build new buildings and bigger buildings. But it also potentially means beautiful new buildings without the capacity to deliver great programming or services. 

And in addition to that, I just wanted to point out that with the consolidated school closure plans, I think almost all of them are like less than a hundred seats after they're combined in each school. 

[00:30:06] Jane Tunks Demel: Less than a hundred seats.

[00:30:07] Jasmine Pulido: So I'll just give you an example. If Highland Park and Sanislo combine, there would be 83 seats remaining. At Highland Park. I think the only one that was more than 100 was Stevens into Montlake. It had 174 seats remaining after they consolidate. And then in the Northwest region, they would have only 50 seats remaining once they combine.  And then 56 would remain at John Rogers if Sacajawea were consolidated into it. 

And I just wanted to point that out only because that's not a lot of seats for a K-5 school to have left. One of the things that keeps being mentioned in all of these documents is declining enrollment is an issue. But in a Seattle Times article that just came out recently, penned by Denny Westneat, it said enrollment actually went up. 

And there were like nine projections, basically three different forecasts, and each offered high, medium, and low predictions for a total of nine estimates. And they were all saying in all those estimates that there was not going to be an increase in enrollment. But it's happening. So if Covid and the pandemic was the low point, and we're starting to see an increase in enrollment now, I just wonder if we're going to have another situation that happened when they closed schools the last time, which is they started opening up schools again, shortly after they closed them. 

[00:31:37] Jane Tunks Demel: Yeah, and that's another reason why we need a multi-year plan. 

 [00:31:41] Christie Robertson: And I guess that they aim for 85% capacity in schools. And so for a 650-seat school, that would be 550 that they'd want to aim for, and they're going to have 600. 

[00:31:53] Jane Tunks Demel: And I saw somewhere in here that they were talking about 95% capacity.

[00:31:58] Christie Robertson: Oh, really?

[00:32:00] Jane Tunks Demel: Yeah, "resource capacity." It's on page 5. It says they have a 95% utilization target. So that explains the numbers you're seeing, Jasmine. And maybe that's why they're not placing the special education pathways in some of those schools.

[00:32:17] Christie Robertson: So what used to happen is that, since I'm an old Seattle Public Schools’ parent, they used to do boundary shifts more often. I remember lots of public meetings where there would just be minor boundary shifts for many schools each year. And I think if you're operating at 85 or 95 percent capacity, that's the kind of thing that starts to happen. So if you're at the edge of an attendance area, you know that you might fall off of that. You get to stay because there's continuous enrollment. But if a new person moves to that house, they would go to a different school. 

[00:32:49] Jasmine Pulido: And in recent years, they have not shifted boundaries. And maybe it's just because of that under enrollment in too many schools. 

[00:32:55] Jane Tunks Demel: Also there was Covid of course. But there just haven't been any boundary shifts recently. And that's one reason why things are so chaotic right now. And that's why I would just love to see a multi-year plan because right now they're jamming these schools together but they're not being thoughtful about it so that it can prevent disruption farther down the line. And then if they know that this is just the first round of closures, if another one's coming, in a year or two years, they can just work with that in mind. 

Staffing

[00:33:23] Jane Tunks Demel: Do we want to talk about the staffing of the new schools, because the staffing is actually going to be less. Did you guys notice that?

[00:33:33] Jasmine Pulido: I did, and yeah, let's definitely talk about it. 

We're all parents here. So just wanted to mention that Peter, my 10-month-old, is here. And that's who you're hearing in the background. 

[00:33:43] Christie Robertson: So because of the WSS, the Weighted Staffing Standard, which determines how many staff each school has.

[00:33:53] Jane Tunks Demel: It's page 6 on the additional document. 

[00:33:57] Christie Robertson: So the combined schools, there's a lot of cases where the numbers just add together. For most of the basic ed teachers, it's like the combination of the basic ed teachers at each school. But for things like music, art, principal, nurse, you don't get the cumulative total of what each school has. It's a little bit less. So for example, for North Beach and Viewlands, each one currently has a halftime librarian, and there'll still be a halftime librarian at the combined school.

[00:34:30] Jasmine Pulido: Pretty much in all of the cases in which there were differences of numbers, they were losing things. And the only situation in which they gained something is there are two basic ed teachers gained when North Beach goes into Viewlands and...

[00:34:47] Christie Robertson: An assistant principal.

[00:34:48] Jasmine Pulido: Oh, yeah, you're right, an assistant principal. .

[00:34:51] Jane Tunks Demel: A .5 assistant principal.

[00:34:54] Jasmine Pulido: And then one other one, which was a plus one basic education teacher when Stevens goes into Montlake. Those are the only increases. 

[00:35:03] Jane Tunks Demel: And yeah, so, what other kinds of positions did you see? What were some of the things that were cut when these schools combined? 

[00:35:13] Christie Robertson: North Beach to Viewlands, a half-time office assistant is lost. I think in almost all cases, a librarian is lost. 

[00:35:22] Jane Tunks Demel: And music, art, and PE, which is the thing that they keep talking about in well resourced schools, how we'll have full time music, art, and PE teachers. But for the Sacajawea and John Rogers consolidation, together, those schools currently have 4.0 full-time equivalent positions for music, art, and PE, but in the new John Rogers, there'll only be three full-time positions. So that's actually a loss. 

Stevens and Montlake, when they combine, they'll retain the same number of positions they have now. But also Sanislo and Highland Park, which are two vulnerable communities, they'll be going from a 3.5 positions for music, art and PE to tree.

So it seems like the number is a standard — one teacher for PE, one for art, one for music. So any combination of schools, if they have more than 3, it's being cut. So I just want to be really clear that these new well resourced schools, the staffing is actually going to be lower. So the individual students will have less face time with those teachers.

[00:36:29] Jasmine Pulido: I will mention though, there are a few positions in which the ratio is maintained. The elementary counselor/social worker, I'll just give an example for North Beach, that's 0.5 and for Viewlands, that's 0.5. And then will be 1.0 when they consolidate. And then also the bilingual teacher will sustain or maintain. 

[00:36:52] Christie Robertson: Although at Stevens and Montlake, they each have a 0.5 counselor social worker, and the combined will still only have a 0.5.

[00:36:59] Jasmine Pulido: Oh, okay. I guess it really depends. And is that because of the prototypical K-5 is 400 students 

[00:37:03] Jane Tunks Demel: I think it's because of the community. If it's a tier 1, tier 2, tier 3, or tier4four. So Viewlands is a Title I community that probably needs more support than Montlake and Stevens, which are wealthier neighborhoods.

[00:37:19] Christie Robertson: But it could also be because the combined Stevens and Montlake is only going to be 322 kids. 

[00:37:25] Jane Tunks Demel: Yeah, it could just be the number of students. So there are not gains anywhere really.

[00:37:31] Christie Robertson: Yeah, there are a couple of basic ed teachers gained.

[00:37:34] Jane Tunks Demel: And there are losses 

[00:37:36] Christie Robertson: Mostly losses, which I guess is the efficiency that they're talking about.

[00:37:40] Jasmine Pulido: Is it? 

[00:37:40] Jane Tunks Demel: It's efficient for adults.

[00:37:42] Jasmine Pulido: I don't know. Is it efficient for adults? It's efficient for the numbers, but... 

[00:37:45] Christie Robertson: Efficient for the money. 

[00:37:46] Jasmine Pulido: For the adults in the building? Yeah, for the money.

[00:37:50] Jane Tunks Demel: Well, it's efficient to have a full-time position. at 1.0 instead of a 0.75 or a 0.5 position. You know, it's easier to fill that job when someone's only at one school. 

[00:38:00] Christie Robertson: There's a 0.1 of a nurse lost at most of them. So if it's 0.2 and 0.2, then the combined is 0.3.

[00:38:09] Jane Tunks Demel: And there's librarian time lost across the board. 

[00:38:12] Christie Robertson: For Sanislo, that was one of the things they were talking about. They had a longtime librarian who was going to be displaced because there just wasn't room for her at the new school.

[00:38:22] Jasmine Pulido: I also wanted to mention that cut time for each of these roles doesn't mean cut workload. I have a friend who's a counselor who said that their hours keep getting cut. But what that really means is that they basically have to do the extra work at home, or they have to do that work and basically not get paid for it. And maybe that workload actually becomes more while their hours get reduced. If they're now serving a larger population of students. 

Also, I think there is information that came out saying that teachers would have to reapply for their jobs. At the consolidated school, is that right?

[00:38:58] Jane Tunks Demel: Yeah, and this is really interesting because in the paperwork they're saying that teachers will stay with students. So if I said that to you, what would you think that meant? 

[00:39:06] Jasmine Pulido: That teachers follow the students to their new school.

[00:39:10] Jane Tunks Demel: But like an individual teacher or like for me, my son has Mr. Reddecliffe. Do we think Mr. Reddecliffe is going to travel with my son to the new school? 

[00:39:19] Christie Robertson: Well that would be what I would think based on that. 

[00:39:21] Jasmine Pulido: Yeah. That's what I would suppose that. 

[00:39:22] Jane Tunks Demel: Well, it turns out, at a North Beach meeting, [SPS staffer] Marni Campbell clarified that what they really mean is that the FTE, which is a full-time equivalent, travels with the students. So it's the teacher position that travels with the number of students. So this is just an example to me of Seattle Public Schools not understanding how to communicate with people. You'll still have that teaching position travel with the students, but the teachers will have to reapply for their jobs at whatever school they end up 

[00:39:53] Christie Robertson: And let me just add that there was a union rep at the Sanislo meeting, and they said that it's not decided that everything is just up in the air. The rep said that about five times. We don't know. We don't know. We don't know. So it sounded like it's not necessarily that they'll have to reapply. It's not necessarily that they won't move to the new school. It's just all up in the air. 

[00:40:16] Jane Tunks Demel: And Marni Campbell, at a meeting that was happening simultaneously to that meeting, said something entirely different. Even the school board directors, I wonder if they know this. Because that's been one of the things they say, that the teacher travels with the students to keep communities together. But what we're hearing is that is not what's happening.

[00:40:36] Jasmine Pulido: Right. I mean, if they say keep communities together, the community is teachers too. So why wouldn't we? Yeah. And special ed. Why wouldn't we think that? And if there was going to be something different, why not spell that out if they knew that from the beginning. 

[00:40:50] Jane Tunks Demel: It's just a communication gap. 

[00:40:53] Christie Robertson: Yeah. It really is offensive that they said that the school community will stay together, and it's only by digging into the special education program page that you, if you really read it closely, then you realize not all the kids, only the kids who aren't getting certain special education programs.

[00:41:11] Jane Tunks Demel: And, as it turns out, the teachers aren't guaranteed to move with the students either.

[00:41:16] Christie Robertson: So that's what we know so far about the four schools proposal. Contact us with additional thoughts or information or anything we missed at hello@seattlehallpass.org. And you can find our show notes at seattlehallpass.org. 

[00:41:31] Jasmine Pulido: While you're at our website, you can also click the donate button to help us fund our costs. contributing as little as the price of a cup of coffee once a month is so helpful to us. 

[00:41:42] Jane Tunks Demel: I'm Jane Tunks Demel.

[00:41:45] Christie Robertson: I'm Christie Robertson. 

[00:41:47] Jasmine Pulido: And I'm Jasmine Pulido. We'll see you next time on Seattle Hall Pass.