Highly Capable and Advanced Learning in Seattle, with Jie Lei

Rainy Day Recess Season 1, Episode 5
December 20, 2024

Each person's opinions are their own.
See our show notes.
Corrections or comments to hello@rainydayrecess.org.

[00:00:01] Christie Robertson: Welcome to the Rainy Day Recess podcast, where we study and discuss Seattle Public Schools. I'm Christie Robertson.

[00:00:09] Jasmine Pulido: I'm Jasmine Pulido. 

We'd like to welcome onto the podcast Jie Lei, who is a parent who wrote in to us recently in regards to the HCC program. 

 [00:00:15] Christie Robertson: And we'd like to note that this interview was edited for length and clarity. And each person's opinion is their own.   

[00:00:20] Jasmine Pulido: Jie, do you want to introduce yourself?  

[00:00:22] Jie Lei: Hi, I am Jie Lei. I have two children at Seattle Public Schools. I have one student at Cascadia Elementary who is in the HCC cohort, and I have one child at our neighborhood school which is also a Title I school. 

[00:00:38] Christie Robertson: Thanks so much for being with us here today, Jie. And let's start with what inspired you to write into us? What do you think people need to know about HCC? 

[00:00:48] Jie Lei: I think that the format of the podcast allows us to have a in depth conversation about the program. It's really hard to talk about a lot of the nuances when it's just snippets or a written format, There's very deep ramifications to what Seattle Public Schools is doing to its Highly Capable program. And I want to share some of the personal stories that I have with you. 

[00:01:16] Jasmine Pulido: Speaking of your personal storyhow has HCC related programs impacted you and your family? 

Jie's Personal Story As An SPS Student 

[00:01:24] Jie Lei: So I'm a first-generation immigrant. My parents and I came from China when I was almost nine. When I first started at Seattle Public Schools, I was put in the ESL program, and then later the special education program, and later the general education program, and later the spectrum program, which is the Advanced Learning program now, and later on, I tested into the APP program, which is now renamed the HCC program. I feel like I went through the entire gamut of the offerings at the time for Seattle Public Schools.

 my parents came here with really nothing. When I started Seattle Public Schools, I knew no English at all. They put me in the ESL program at TOPS, which was also a cohort program, where they gathered a bunch of Children who were in need of ESL and put us all in a classroom. 

I finished that program in six months, and they put me at my neighborhood school, which was BF Day. There was no ESL support at the time. They gave me an assessment to see where I was at. And I couldn't read the questions in English, and I couldn't answer a lot of the questions in English. As a result of the assessment, they decided that I needed to be placed in the special education program because I was, in their words, "mentally retarded". I was in a pull-out class with some of the kids who have special education needs with an IA. I didn't even know what program I was in. I had no idea what was happening to me at the time. After a couple of months, it dawned on me that I was not with the regular students. And then the IA one day asked me, “why are you here? What are you doing in this program?” 

 Because I was not being supported at the school, my dad went to the district and asked that I be placed in a different school. The only school that had availability, according to the district, was Stevens. So they bussed me down to Stevens. And I had a wonderful time at Stevens. The teachers were so supportive. They helped me grow. I was placed in the general education program at Stevens, and through the help of a lot of the teachers, by the time I was in fifth grade, I was able to speak English fluently. I was top of my class. 

 My teacher recommended that my parents send me to Eckstein because they had an Advanced Learning program, the Spectrum program, and so that's what my parents did. They made a lot of sacrifices. I was one of the free and reduced lunch kids. We had no money, and my parents had to make a lot of sacrifices so that we could move into the Eckstein geozone so that I could attend Eckstein. And then, the first day I showed up at Eckstein, they told me, "Hey, you can't go here. We don't have you on the roster." And the excuse they used was because my visa had expired or something. This is all from memory, so I don't have any documentation of this, but that was the excuse that they said, which was really confusing because they could have just asked us for a renewed visa at the time. But they didn't. All they did was they simply removed me from the school that I was zoned for.

That was not clearly explained to my family or me because they were communicating in English, and my parents did not speak English. I didn't understand English enough to know what was happening. But I was not allowed to go there. 

And then, when my parents showed up and they had the proof of residency and all that stuff, the only school that had space was Meany. It was over an hour for us to bus me to Meany. 

So my dad took a lot of time off to try to get me back into Eckstein. 

[00:05:40] Jasmine Pulido: What did your dad end up doing? As someone who didn't speak much English, what did that look like? 

[00:05:48] Jie Lei: That looked like taking a lot of time off. My father was an hourly worker, and that resulted in a huge financial hardship. We lived paycheck to paycheck. We had no excess money. But he was at the district office every day for two weeks, using old-school dictionaries to get the point across.

I don't know if they just got tired of him showing up every day. I don't know if somebody heard and actually cared.  But eventually, yeah, they put me on the top of the wait list for Eckstein. Eckstein had a very robust Advanced Learning program. There was a waitlist of 200 kids that year. And the enrollment office said, “You have no chance of getting in. Just try again next year.” And my father, who was very tenacious, was like, "No, we moved here so my daughter can get the benefits of being in a school that could serve her." And he just didn't give up.

At Eckstein, I tested into the Spectrum Program. Great experience. 

And then, after a year of that, I tested into HCC. So I had to bus down to Washington Middle School for the program. that was the most challenging school work that I had in Seattle Public Schools. I really enjoyed being challenged and given harder work. After a few months at Washington, one of my teachers at Washington, Mr. Schmitz, said, you don't really need to go to high school. I think you should go to college. And that's what I did. After eighth grade, I went to college. And I think that set me on the path where I am today. 

And I'm hoping to use my privilege, my voice, and my energy to help other kids who are like me, who could really benefit from a program that is supposed to be available to all kids in Seattle, whether you're rich, poor, white, black; everyone should have access to this program. Instead, what I'm seeing is that instead of improving and reducing the inequities in the program, Seattle Public Schools is simply shutting it down and removing access from all kids. That is an injustice. 

Current Status of the HC Program 

[00:08:17] Christie Robertson: It's been three or four years that they've been in this process, saying they're going to dismantle the cohort model where kids go to a different school to get HCC and that they're going to pull that into neighborhood schools. You have been tracking the district's words on this. Do you want to talk a little bit about what they're saying? 

[00:08:36] Jie Lei: Yes. The reason I'm tracking it is because my son entered Seattle Public Schools And so I saw what happened. 

Even though I thought that disbanding the cohort model seemed a little strange at the time, I was willing to give it a shot. I sent my kids to our neighborhood school. I went through the process. there was no neighborhood model. Based on my communications with other parents, none of them had seen any kind of pilot program. And they were families that went to pilot schools. I asked around to a bunch of schools. Several principals said to me, “We have received no funding and no training to be able to offer Advanced Learning services to our kids in the classroom model.” 

[00:09:30] Christie Robertson: And to be clear, there is funding that comes from OSPI to the district to provide HCC. Extra money.

According to RCW 28A.150.260, which is the prototypical formula for allocations of funding to schools, each district gets an additional funding allotment for another 2.16 hours per week per student for 5% of the school district's enrollment. By my calculations, that gets Seattle Public Schools approximately a million dollars in the last year.

[00:10:07] Jie Lei: Not only were they not offering Advanced Learning services, starting in 2021,  they were no longer identifying advanced learners. They had removed all Advanced Learning programs at neighborhood schools. So, there’s no spectrum. There's no Walk-to-Math. There's not even pullouts for students who need more advanced work. 

And so, if you look at it as a parent who had a kid who entered kindergarten in 2022, there is nothing. It's either Gen Ed or HCC cohort. Even if I had wanted to keep my child at our neighborhood school, I was told that there would be no support and no services for him. 

This year in Cascadia, for example, the district projected we would only have 400 students. We have 530 students. We beat the projections, but the only reason we did that was a lot of parents are saying, "They removed Walk-to-Math, they're making my son repeat math class, my child has no Advanced Learning, they're only allowed books within a specific grade level. That's what we're doing. Back in my day we were allowed to have reading material beyond our grade level. What I am hearing now is that many kids are being told they are not allowed to. For example, if you're in kindergarten, maybe you're not allowed to check out chapter books. And I want to stress that, in the 90s. I pretty much lived in the library. I loved reading. I cannot imagine why anyone would want to restrict reading material to children. 

That's why parents came to Cascadia - because they realized that their kids would no longer be supported. Many of them were very reluctant to leave the neighborhood schools because they had kids who were in fourth grade, fifth grade. They don't want to transition their kids in the middle of their elementary school career. But they did it anyway because they felt the benefit of having academic challenges that are appropriate for their children is More beneficial to their long-term growth, 

[00:12:33] Christie Robertson: What, to me, would have made sense would have been to build HCC and Advanced Learning up at the neighborhood schools. Why would you choose to go away to a whole different school if you had access to it at your neighborhood school? 

[00:12:48] Jie Lei: Absolutely. And I think it's a circular argument with the district because they keep saying, "Oh, it exists. It's already happening." But a lot of the parents are saying, "It's not happening. That's why we need the HCC program. It's the only thing that is left in our district to help kids who can benefit from Advanced Learning services." As required by Washington state law. They're identified as Highly Capable.  

There are some misconceptions I think about the kids. Many kids are in the program because they're neuro-diverse. Many of them are asynchronous developers. Maybe they're very advanced in academics, but they are lacking in other aspects of their life. I don't want people to think that it's just kids who can learn really fast, who are well-behaved and can sit in the back of a classroom with an iPad. Many of these kids need a lot of support. And they get that support from being in the cohort program because they are with other kids who may be going through the same things that they are. 

There is benefit to having a cohort versus in neighborhood schools. Just like with, for example, the deaf and hard of hearing program, there is benefit to being with kids who are like you. For some kids, they're fine in their neighborhood schools, But for other kids, having that option, is really really helpful for them to find camaraderie and belonging and fitting in. And so I think even with the shift to the neighborhood model to improve access, I still believe that there is a place for a cohort model. 

[00:14:31] Jasmine Pulido: What I hear you advocating for is like a both/and, right? If there are those who need access in a neighborhood school, then why not have that? But also, why not have a cohort model? And we've seen benefits of that too in other programs.

[00:14:46] Jie Lei: Yes. 

[00:14:46] Christie Robertson: And, you know, at one point in their planning, the district talked about that, even with moving HCC to neighborhood schools, there might need to be a separate program for 2e kids. (And those are kids who have a need for special education services as well as Advanced Learning services.)

[00:15:06] Jie Lei: Yes. 

[00:15:06] Christie Robertson: Because those are the kids who might benefit the most from having that social, the kids around that are like them. And, of course, I've never seen any further signs of development of that idea.

Timeline and History of HCC/Advanced Learning Programs at SPS

[00:15:16] Christie Robertson: Tell us what you know about the history of Advanced Learning in Seattle Public Schools. 

This is Christie, and I wanted to let listeners know that I made my best attempt at writing out this timeline in our show notes if you want to follow along as Jie goes through what she knows about the history of these programs. And if any of our listeners have any additional information or corrections. Make sure to email us at hello@rainydayrecess.org.

[00:15:47] Jie Lei: So initially, I believe that this idea of an Advanced Learning program came from the 1950s when the U. S. was engaged in the Cold War with the U. S. S. R. And Congress set up the U. S. National Defense Education Act in 1958 specifically, To identify gifted students and boost math, science, and foreign language skills. 

And in the '60s, the Seattle School Board adopted the Policy for the Education of Able Learners, which set the stage for Accelerated Primary". And the district specifically used race as a factor in the admissions process. children who test in the top one percentile by race or ethnic group as determined by IQ and achievement tests. So I think there was intentionality to make it more racially balanced. 

And then Accelerated Primary was renamed IPP the Individual Progress Program in 1979. 

The Horizon Program came about in 1978 to take the top 5% of each racial group. Seattle became the first city in the nation to voluntarily desegregate schools by busing, and I believe it was meant to make busing more amenable. these were magnet programs, and they were sited predominantly in schools that served students of color. 

So, there were two different programs at the time, two different purposes. The IPP program was very small, I believe around a hundred students at the time, whereas the Horizon program was much bigger given that it was the top five percentile of testers.

 And in 1984, I believe that the district had strengthened testing protocols to screen all kids for giftedness. And did the gifted testing during the school day as opposed to on a Saturday. And within one year, they actually increased the student of color enrollment by 6%. 

And then I believe there was a lawsuit by a parent about how it's unfair, or they were dumbing down the program or something of that nature. The case was thrown out, so It didn't even go to court. But the state threatened to pull funding from Seattle if they only take test scores and race into account. So in 1987, the district reworked its identification process to look at the "background." 

[00:18:32] Jasmine Pulido: So, like things that are like adjacent to race, that might be contextual clues. 

[00:18:38] Jie Lei: Yes, so socioeconomics, cultural and other environmental factors 

And right after that the district phased out Horizon and implemented Spectrum. 

And IPP, at some point in the late 80s, I believe, was renamed APP, and it remained for the top one percentile of testers. 

When I went to school in the 90s, In addition to APP, there was a Spectrum program.

[00:19:00] Jasmine Pulido: And I would love for you to mention how Spectrum was different from Horizon 

[00:19:08] Jie Lei: Yes, So the district phased out Horizon, and they implemented Spectrum. And Spectrum, prior to 2003, offered a more discretionary program with a lot of flexibility for the teachers and the school administrators to be able to put high-performing kids into the classroom without testing in. Many schools had self-contained classrooms for kids who tested into Spectrum, which was the top five percentile. But if they had space in the classroom schools, teachers had the discretion to put kids into that spectrum class to fill up that class. It could be you're really good at math, or you're really good at reading, but you are either grade level or lacking or whatever in another aspect. So it gave a lot of flexibility for administrators to be able to put kids in just spectrum math or just spectrum reading.

And that was available in a lot of schools in both North and South Seattle.

Later on though, so in 2003, you had to have a certain percentage of kids to have that spectrum designation at your school. And so as a result a lot of schools, especially schools in the south end lost their Spectrum designations. That, to me, is bizarre - to require schools to have a certain percentage of kids who are able to test in so that they can have this self contained classroom, as opposed to allowing more flexibility of identifying kids who had maybe asynchronous development, or Advanced Learning that is not manifested in their test scores. And so it seems counterintuitive, but that is what happened. 

[00:20:55] Jasmine Pulido: And then that turned into Advanced Learning. 

[00:20:58] Jie Lei: Yeah, and they renamed that Advanced Learning. And some schools circumnavigated that by doing Walk-to-Math, and that became a thing. In fact, a lot of parents told me, “Hey, get your son into Walk-to-Math because he's so good at math.” And when we showed up, they were like, “Yeah, we don't have Walk-to-Math anymore. It's gone.”

[00:21:20] Jasmine Pulido: So first it was Advanced Primary, right?

[00:21:22] Jie Lei: Accelerated 

[00:21:23] Jasmine Pulido: Accelerated Primary. 

[00:21:25] Jie Lei: Yeah. And then it became IPP. And I actually really liked the names before. I don't understand why it's called Highly Capable.

And I think in 2016, HCC was pulling kids who were in the top five percentile, so you have to test in the 95th percentile and above. And Spectrum was for kids who tested in the 87th percentile and above. And in 2016, approximately 20% of Seattle Public School students were either in Spectrum or HCC. That's a lot of kids. 

HCC now

[00:21:58] Christie Robertson: So let's kind of talk about where things stand right now.

[00:22:02] Jie Lei: So, during the August school board meeting, several school board members asked about clarification around HC programming.

[00:22:10] Christie Robertson: Here's some footage from that meeting from director Evan Briggs. 

[00:22:15] Evan Briggs: so basically if we're phasing out the cohort program, if that's going away, what is going in its place? And what is the timeline for that, what is that going to look like, how is it going to be implemented? And when are we going to get that information?

...

It feels weird to be talking about this, but then not acknowledge that we don't actually have any information about where we're going with Highly Capable, which I feel like has been a lingering question for some time now. 

...

I think what I'm getting at is just like going forward, how will we even know if the services are being delivered if we don't know what the services are? So that's really my plain and simple question. 

[00:22:56] Jie Lei: This tells me that even the school board members have no idea what is actually happening to the HC program. This is very troubling to me because the school board in 2021, so it was right during COVID, voted to reconfigure the HC program. They didn't vote to just sunset HCC; they voted to implement programming at neighborhood schools. And so what I'm seeing is that the district has been following their promise to dismantle HCC programming, but they did not follow the directive to run the neighborhood programs so that there will be a pathway for students to continue to go into Highly Capable services not at the cohort school.

And Gina Topp was trying to follow up and say can we please have a work session highlighting the needs of the Highly Capable and Advanced Learning students, But I haven't seen anything and it's been four months.  But hey, I get it. We've been talking about school closures for the last four months, so maybe they're a little bit busy.

But that does not mean that the school district is not sunsetting our school. It's happening right now. Next year, Cascadia will only have third to fifth grade. And there are schools that don't have the funding to be able to run the school when, like, they only have 100 something kids. 

[00:24:32] Christie Robertson: And there's only one HCC school on the South End, is that right? 

[00:24:36] Jie Lei: It's not even an HCC school. There is an HC program being housed at Thurgood Marshall, but I don't know how that program is being run. And a lot of parents that I've heard from the South End and in West Seattle, Thurgood Marshall is pretty far. Like many parents do not consider that an accessible school. I don't understand why the district has not sited an actual HC school on the southeast side. I think that would be very much in demand if it existed. 

[00:25:09] Jasmine Pulido: Yeah, and maybe even people who have left the Seattle public school system would come in order to access that program. 

Race and Equity and HCC

[00:21:58] Christie Robertson: Jie, can you address some of the racial equity problems around the Highly Capable Cohort?

[00:25:17] Jie Lei: I think historically, it was less racially diverse. We need to make testing and the admission process more fair. And that would include a whole spectrum of things that we could be doing. But we're not doing that. We haven't done that. The only thing that the district has done in the last few years was to implement universal screening. 

[00:25:46] Christie Robertson: And that was only because a new law was passed a couple of years ago, right?

[00:25:51] Jie Lei: Yes. Previously even when I was going to school, we were screened by teacher recommendation. Which was incredibly unfair, in my opinion. But nowadays because of the Washington State law, Seattle tests all students.  I suspect that's why MAP tests are being used because it's easy to administer, and it's already being administered to all students anyway. If you get all three in a certain percentile. Okay, you're in. So, that is what is currently happening in terms of universal screening. 

[00:26:30] Christie Robertson: And how has that impacted diversity at Cascadia? I watched the hearings in the legislature about that law to implement universal screening and some of the legislators testified that it had vastly increased the diversity in their programs.

[00:26:46] Jie Lei: So within its geo zone, which is Northwest Seattle and parts of Northeast Seattle, it is now one of the most diverse schools. it is now a majority minority school with students of color going from 28.9% in 2017 to now it is 51.7% students of color. And not only that, the percentage of Black students enrollment at Cascadia increased by 583%. For Latino student enrollment it increased by almost 300%. Those are huge improvements in just a few years of implementing universal screening. Cascadia is now a minority white school that is sited In a region that is a majority white. This tells me a lot of things. It tells me parents still want to go to Cascadia, especially parents of color. It is a very desirable program, and it makes no sense for the district to shut down a program that has had continuous improvements in equity. Imagine what we can do if we implement better tests, better screening process. I bet we can probably see those numbers increase even further. 

[00:28:16] Jasmine Pulido: Yeah, it's so odd. Jie you reached out to us originally. You had read the HCC series that I wrote a few years ago when they were starting to implement Dismantling the cohort model. And at that time, they were wanting to move it to neighborhood schools to make it more racially equitable. 

and it's interesting to see that the state policy state policies coming into place that is addressing the racial inequity. And yet, on the district level for us in Seattle, we're just abandoning the program basically even though it's that particular concern is being directly addressed with those who still have the program right now.

Dismantling of HCC

[00:28:59] Jasmine Pulido: And for those of us who are not involved with Highly Capable or know about its progression, they're doing a phased out model where those who are in the Highly Capable can complete it, but they're not taking in new students. 

[00:29:13] Jie Lei: They're phasing it out grade by grade. if your child, for example, is in third grade your child can still opt in. But if your child is in a grade that is no longer present, then they cannot opt in.

[00:29:27] Jasmine Pulido: And those who just happen to have kids who are in the younger grades are not getting served, even though by law, they need to be identified and served. 

[00:29:36] Jie Lei: Yes, you are summing it up correctly. And I thought that it was really interesting - in a recent interview with Dr. Brent Jones on KUOW with Soundside Libby Denkmann, he admitted that the implementation is problematic. So, if the district is aware that the implementation of the neighborhood model is problematic, if you are not spending the time, the money, and the effort to make the neighborhood programs possible, don't dismantle the program that is currently working. 

It does not cost more. Cascadia has historically been one of the lowest funded schools. Earlier this spring, I wrote an op ed in the Seattle Times. Cascadia received less than $10,000 per student. And so in some ways. It's a net earner for the district because we cost significantly less to operate than the majority of the schools. And I speculate that it is because the cohort model is more efficient. 

There was an Advanced Learning Task Force. They gathered all these community members to draft up a whole list of recommendations that was very thoughtful. And the district failed to follow through on the recommendations from the task force that they gathered themselves.

One of the specific recommendations was, "Do not get rid of the cohort program until you have the neighborhood programs in place." Because kids, especially in the elementary years, do not have years to wait for a program to come online. The disengagement from school happens very quickly, especially for young kids. 

I have an email from a executive within Seattle Public Schools who said that they are still planning the neighborhood HC curriculum. The key word is “planning”. So I think there is some acknowledgement at least within the higher levels of the district that there hasn't been implementation. 

I heard from some parents that there are some pullout programs or tutoring that is happening at certain neighborhood schools. I dug into that a little bit. And my understanding is that those are being funded by PTAs. That, to me, is a huge red flag. As I mentioned, I have a child who is at a Title I school. We don't have PTA paid tutors. So now, if your child goes to a school where parents are more able to be involved and provide resources, then your child might disproportionately benefit. So now we're really exacerbating the inequities in Seattle Public Schools, 

That, to me, is the complete opposite of what the cohort model is doing. Because in the cohort model, every child who is identified and lives in that geo zone is guaranteed to go and therefore they're guaranteed to receive those services. But now the kids are really being divided into the haves and the have nots.

[00:33:21] Jasmine Pulido: And just to add on, that's just exacerbated by the fact that Seattle is redlined. The North and South end have a lot of socioeconomic disparities, which are completely tied to race. So what ends up happening is, it becomes even more inequitable without a structural program in place by the district. 

[00:33:46] Christie Robertson: And I think this also points to the difficulty in this approach of: if something is inequitable or has difficulties to tear it down. The same problem with closing schools, the same problem if you took down the cohort model without being ready. Is that to bring something BACK is hard. 

[00:34:06] Jie Lei: It's very hard. 

[00:34:07] Christie Robertson: It would take a huge amount of planning to re-implement Advanced Learning in the neighborhood schools and Walk-to-Math, and they'd have to make a lot of new plans from scratch as opposed to leaving something in place 

[00:34:22] Jie Lei: We should have a abundance mindset, which is if HC programs doesn't cost more... I bet you if we sited multiple HC schools or Advanced Learning programs or STEM programs in the south end, you're going to see more students of color join those programs. Like I mentioned, Cascadia is in a majority white geozone, and it's now a minority white school. That tells you a lot of children of color still have parents who want to send them to challenging programs.

The program itself, Advanced Learning itself, Highly Capable itself is not the problem. It's getting access to the program that's the problem. And by getting rid of the program, altogether, you're not improving access. You're just getting rid of it for everyone. In particular, those students who are furthest from educational justice. Students who are like me, whose parents never had resources to get tutoring or outside help or is able to navigate the system so that I can go to private school.

Why is HCC important?

[00:35:27] Jasmine Pulido: Yeah, and I would love to point out too that there are parents of color who are advocating for the Highly Capable or Advanced Learning program as a way to avoid the school to prison pipeline. There are long term, lifetime outcomes that come from this because of the racial bias that exists in identifying students either for special education services or for Highly Capable or twice exceptional. 

What was really shocking for me was that black parents who were advocating for their black boys and were qualified for Highly Capable when they testified in support of the program were told that they were tokens. The amount of educational injustice in that is just mind blowing to me. That school board members would use language that is meant to advocate for students of color is now being weaponized against them to close a program. It's just like, to me, the ultimate gaslighting. 

[00:36:28] Jie Lei: That is an injustice. I saw how heartbreaking it was and traumatizing it was for a lot of parents. 

Because honestly, as a person of color, it's really hard. It's really hard for me to be here today to share some of my personal stories. I haven't told a lot of this to anyone, and now they're going to know my personal story, but the reason I'm doing it is because, if you can look at my background and how I grew up and the hardships that I went through and you still say that I'm being tokenized or I am being unfair or inequitable, we're just not on the same wavelength.

I am fighting for all of the kids in seattle Public Schools. I stress the word public schools. All kids should have access to these programming. when I'm saying things, I hope people are taking my word as it is. And that it's genuine. There is no ulterior motive. my kid is already in the program. and I don't get any additional benefit to fight for the continuation of the program. 

The reason that I'm here is that I'm hoping that, especially for kids who are like me, immigrant, person of color, poor... I know that there are more kids like me out there who, if they had access to this program, could really accelerate their life. I'm just thinking back to my childhood. If I were stuck in that special education pull out classroom, maybe that's how I would have believed about myself. Having the opportunity to be challenged in academics and having the opportunity to really excel, not having that artificial ceiling over my head, made me the person I am today. The opportunity for Advanced Learning and Highly Capable education really changed the trajectory of my life. And I'm really hoping that this can be a pathway for other students who are like me to succeed in life, whatever pathway they choose.

[00:38:41] Christie Robertson: I think an important point is, not having access to Advanced Learning might not just be that you don't get ahead but that some kids, you know, neurodivergent kids, might just have a really difficult time tolerating a classroom without the appropriate level to them of learning and that and it could lead to acting out. It could lead to being placed in special education. It could lead to being disciplined and missing days of school. It could go so far as to put them on the school to prison pipeline. 

[00:39:20] Jasmine Pulido: And restraint and isolation as well. 

[00:39:21] Jie Lei: You're 100% right on that, Christie. Because I actually have a very interesting chart made by another parent named Andy Cooper, who used OSPI data that showed that, at neighborhood schools, the group that had the highest disciplinary rates were students who have 504s. And then after that, it was Highly Capable Kids. So, Highly Capable kids at neighborhood schools are disciplined at much higher rates. 

And I was, like, shocked. But in some ways, it resonated because I can see why. I don't have any data to back it up, but I suspect it's because maybe they're bored and they're not appropriately challenged. So, they are acting up in ways that are disruptive to the class and the teachers, and therefore, they're disciplined. 

So it's not just you're not educating these kids. In some ways, you're directly harming them by not giving them access to these programs. 

[00:40:20] Christie Robertson: But imagine if those same Highly Capable kids are placed at a program at Cascadia, where all of their peers are doing work that's accelerated. Maybe they won't need to be disciplined. 

This is Christie and I pulled the data down from OSPI to see for myself. And in fact, the rate of discipline for HCC kids at non-HCC schools. Is 17.32%. Whereas at HCC schools, those same students are disciplined at a rate of 1.03%.

[00:40:53] Jie Lei: It shows me that many HC kids may not be served at all in neighborhood schools. 

[00:40:59] Christie Robertson: To be clear, GenEd teachers are not trained in providing Advanced Learning or special education. 

[00:41:06] Jie Lei: No. And I heard this from several teachers that they have no training at all and no funding and no resources to do anything, even if they wanted to for kids who may benefit from more work within the classroom.

[00:41:21] Jasmine Pulido: My husband was definitely one of those kids growing up who was labeled a troublemaker from really young until he got into a gifted program. And then they realized, “Oh, my gosh, he was just really bored. And was looking for ways for mental stimulation.” And then, completely different trajectory after that. 

[00:41:37] Jie Lei: I can definitely resonate with what you're saying in terms of boredom and the desire to act out because you're making these kids go to school six hours a day. And if they are not being stimulated, if they're not being challenged, how miserable! You're just sitting in a classroom to do what? You're not allowed to read ahead. You're not allowed to do more work. You're supposed to sit quietly at your desk, not learning every day for six hours at a time. As an adult, I don't think I have the capacity to just be able to do that. And I think that's asking a lot of little kids. 

The Future

[00:42:23] Jasmine Pulido: We're already starting to go into that territory, but tell us about what your hopes and fears for programs like HCC in the future? 

[00:42:30] Jie Lei: My asks are very simple. I think as any parent in Seattle Public School, we want our children to learn appropriately. We are a district of 50,000 students, and all of those kids have their own strengths and weaknesses. And we should be meeting every kid where they're at. This is what the district has been saying over and over again. I want them to keep their word. 

 I would really love to see Seattle Public Schools expand their offerings, so that we can really meet all kids where they're at. Art programs, performing programs science, math, whatever I don't really care. I just want to see more possibilities, more pathways for All Seattle Public School students to have access to enrichments that benefit them. 

Specifically for HC Services, I want them to continue on improving the identification process to enable more access to the program. 

 I'm asking for the district; I'm pleading with them. Please stop sunsetting these programs and bring back the programs that did work for the district. Don't sunset HCC until you have a tested and proven neighborhood model. 

And I'm not just calling for pausing the dismantlement of HCC schools. I'm asking for the district to please bring back the Advanced Learning programs at our neighborhood schools so that we can absolutely increase equity and access to Advanced Learning materials at all schools. 

[00:43:56] Jasmine Pulido: Thank you so much, Jie, for everything that you shared with us today.

[00:44:00] Christie Robertson: Thank you so much for being with us here today. We really appreciate you. 

[00:44:04] Jie Lei: I'm a big fan. Please continue to highlight the issues within Seattle Public Schools. It's so educational for parents like me. I've learned so much from your podcast. 

Outro

[00:44:16] Jasmine Pulido: I also just want to say to our listeners, if you are a person who is multi-generational engaging in the district, maybe your grandparents went to the school, then you went to the schools, and then your kids are going to schools, please write in to us. We would love to hear more about the history of lived experience from our audience in Seattle Public Schools. 

[00:44:42] Christie Robertson: Email us at hello@rainydayrecess.org. 

[00:44:45] Jasmine Pulido: You can find our show notes at our website, www.rainydayrecess.org, or you can also subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. 

[00:44:53] Christie Robertson: If you like our work, please consider donating at our website. The price of a cup of coffee once a month is so helpful to us. And thank you to our current donors. 

[00:45:02] Jasmine Pulido: Yes. Special thanks to Lester Mayo and Manzana Movement for our music. 

 I'm Jasmine Pulido 

[00:45:08] Christie Robertson: I'm Christie Robertson. Stay curious, stay cozy and join us next time for Rainy Day Recess.